NS: This is an oral history interview with Jeanette Stoner. My name is Natasha Simon and it is May 17th, 2019 and I’m sitting in the kitchen at Jeannie Stoner’s loft at 83 Leonard Street [New York City]. And we’re going to talk for as long as our energy lasts about Jeanette Stoner’s life in dance or in whatever field she wants to talk about. So I guess my first question to you is [pause] -- relates to Nikolais. How did you find out about him?
JS: Well, it’s very simple. I was going to Martha Graham [1894-1991] [The Martha Graham School], and I actually love that technique but I -- I realized that I was never gonna be my own person if I stayed there, you know, I would -- as a choreographer or whatever. And so I went to the American Dance Festival in New London [Connecticut] and I saw Elina Mooney [1942-2017] improvise. And then I realized that was a big thing that I would like to try, and so I asked all around and I found out that that was the place that I could do it. That there was really no other possibilities for improvisation and composition, which I was interested in, very interested in. So um...
NS: Are you referring to Henry Street [Henry Street Playhouse] --
JS: Yeah.
NS: -- at that point?
JS: Yeah. So, I went down there and it was so different than -- than Martha Graham (laughs). And I joined it, and you know you had to join it for a long -- for a whole semester. And, um, well, it -- and then I don’t know, I had mixed feelings for a while. I had mixed feelings about the technique, the physical technique.
NS: In what way?
JS: Well, Martha Graham has such a physical technique that’s beautiful and very structured and everything, so -- and it was great. I’m so long-bodied and it was so great for contraction was -- a great thing for me. But I felt that the improvisation and composition were like -- it was such a gift for me. I had Murray [Murray Louis, 1926-2016], and he just, I don’t know, it’s like he made me realize that I had an imagination. He -- a-- apparently to him, he wrote about it in his book, it was the year, it was Tandy [Tandy Beal, 1943- ] and Norman [Norman Ader] and Virginia Laidlaw and -- and it was like a -- in his teaching it was like a high moment.
NS: Is that 1960...
JS: I don’t know. I don’t ever know dates of things. But we were all in a class together and bupbupbup, so much creativity came out of it, and I realized that I had an imagination and I realized that’s what I wanted to do was to choreograph and, he was fantastic for me. So then we went to Nikolais’s class. I remember going while we were with Murray, we went because Murray was gone so we went to his -- his composition class which was scary. (giggles) But, I feel like the whole thing of being nurtured in the way especially that Murray did in the beginning, I needed that so badly. I was so without confidence or -- and just the whole environment of Henry Street -- that we could use studios, that we had a place to perform, that, the whole environment was so creative then. And, it just gave me so much.
NS: Do you remember what kinds of problems or concepts that Murray was tackling at that point -- or that you were tackling then?
JS: Yes, yes I definitely do. Shape. Space, motion and time -- in that class; I remember Norman coming [00:05:00] with a lamp -- huge lamp shade, and then, it’s like it started all of us to see how we could...
NS: Was there an assignment?
JS: He did a composition with a lamp shade and I don’t remember what the composition was. But Murray was so creative then, I mean in teaching. He was just brilliant, and he “Okay, (makes busy sounds and motions)" and he was dropping things. It was juicy at that time, really great. And we were kind of competing and stimulating each other, and it was -- it was marvelous, really.
NS: My understanding at Henry Street, was that you had -- the format was that, as you say, you enrolled for a year or for a semester. So that there was a great --
JS: Commitment.
NS: -- deal of commitment and -- attention paid to an ongoing process. Is that…?
JS: Yes, and all the original people -- or not maybe all, but most of the original people were there. Beverly Blossom [Beverly Schmidt Blossom, 1926-2014] had left, but Phyllis [Phyllis Lamhut, 1933- ], all the rest – and Bill [Bill Frank] was there and Murray and Phyllis. It was like the original company. And so that was a ball to --
NS: To have that as an environment in which to work?
JS: Yes (phone rings).
NS: But that the -- also that the commitment was to a technique class, and improvisation and in composition.
JS: Mm-hmm.
NS: Right? So that you --
ANSWERING MACHINE INTERRUPTS CONVERSATION
NS: -- you came there obviously having had dance training.
JS: Not that much though. I mean I danced when I was -- I mean for me, my situation was that when I was a child, my sisters and I danced every night after dinner, but without any training. You see what I mean? And then I did have two years with his [Nikolais’] first dance partner, Truda Kaschmann [1906-1986]. I came from Hartford where Nik came from. And so that was amazing, when I found that out.
NS: It was almost in the stars that you would end up at Henry Street?
JS: Well, it -- I felt that it was a big veer -- that it was a very surprising thing for me to be there, do you know what I mean? And all along I -- I was -- I don’t know, I -- I -- I’m not somebody that can -- I don’t know if this is important to say -- but I -- I needed to see movement fully done in order to get it. You know, in -- in technique class. So that was always a problem for me with Nik. Do a little this, do a litt-- you know what I mean? So, anyway, I learned so much and I -- I don’t know, I kept it with me always.
NS: Can I backtrack, because I’m intrigued by the after-dinner entertainment. Were they dance classes or was it that you went to --
JS: We just put on music.
NS: -- or was it just music.
JS: Actually my father was a drummer, but, I mean he was a businessman but he was a -- he had originally played the violin before college, and then he started playing the drums, so they had a lot of jazzy kind of music and shows and stuff like that, so we gave shows for maybe one or two people -- you know, as children. My sister was the director. She was the oldest. And we had a few ragtag kids from the block, but mainly I and maybe Susan, I think just Susan and I, we would dance after dinner every night, or I would anyway, without any idea of anything, just to the music (chuckles). Until I -- I ended up being peculiar in that -- because I mean --
NS: But excited by movement and motion, right?
JS: Oh my gosh yes, yes, yes! That’s what I mean, I feel Nikolais was very intellectual and -- I appreciate what I got from it. But for me… but it was easier for me when something was physical.
NS: What were classes like with Truda?
JS: Well she gave imagery, and in a way, I think she gave little, very little improvisations [00:10:00] -- I don’t even know if I was seven or eight or something like that. We had performances. I was in Peter and the Wolf, and I was Babette -- Babette, Babar’s wife [Histoire de Babar, Jean de Brunhoff] (Natasha giggles). But I remember simple German, I’m sure it’s German things, but I remember some lan-da-dee-da-dee-da with my leg, that was my favorite thing.
NS: Because you have those long legs and long torso, and --
JS: Yeah, anyway, I don’t remember too much what, what her technique class was like.
NS: But she was a local teacher. You were in Connecticut already, so you went to Connecticut College one summer?
JS: Mm-mm. Yes, uh-huh. No, I was in New York when I went to Connecticut College.
NS: How did you end up in New York City from --
JS: Well, I left college. I was, I just -- well, I had a complicated life and I realized that if I didn’t focus on something, that all these studies were not bringing me somewhere. So after two years I left and I went to New York without any knowledge except there was a woman from a dance company who had come to college, kind of getting out of that world into college and -- I got some idea from her, but you know, I just went and just tried things out. I didn’t know anything about it.
NS: Where did you go to college?
JS: Middlebury [Middlebury College]. Which also had nothing to do with me. I wasn’t interested in languages, they didn’t have a dance department. I don’t know.
NS: So then, and it was probably, if I’m not mistaken, it was a -- it was a good time to leave college and find yourself in another place.
JS: It’s a great thing that I did for myself, really. I -- I think that it was so wise and I’m surprised at that moment that I was so wise, but yeah.
NS: So you land in New York, it’s almost the quintessential story -- someone seeking their fortune in New York, and you went to the Graham Studio.
JS: Yes, I went for a summer. I stayed with my sister and I went in the summer for the summer course. And then, that’s when I left. I think because I knew that much, you know.
NS: And then before that, though, you were at -- at that summer session at Connecticut College as well.
JS: Yes.
NS: And besides Elina, whom else did you study with there?
JS: Oh, I didn’t study with her, I just saw her. She gave a demonstration of improvisation. Who I -- did I study with? All the techniques pretty much. Yeah, I went a few summers.
NS: I was there also, and I can remember vividly, I lived at Lambdin 408. That dorm and I -- but it was my first sort of exposure to the wider world of dance as opposed to the local world where you -- where you dance to the record in your living room kind of thing. And, although we’d seen concerts, I mean I had seen dance concerts growing up -- but that was when I was exposed in technique to Jose Limon’s [1908-1972] classes, Limon technique and Graham technique -- and composition. It was a very intense summer --
JS: It was for me too, absolutely.
NS: But there was a bug there for you that said “I want to be able to -- to dance.”
JS: Well, I was only at Connecticut College after I was in New York. No, and it was before I was in New York that I went to Martha Graham’s summer course.
NS: But, as you say, it didn’t give you -- it didn’t satisfy that other part of you, which was improvisation and --.
JS: Well, I didn’t even know about improvisation, but just when I saw it I just clicked that it was a key for me. You know, that is -- was something important. I think I wanted to be great like Martha Graham, as a choreographer. My birthday’s the same as hers, you know I thought “Well.” But, [pause] so it was really dropping into such a different world. I mean I [00:15:00] -- I didn’t grow up with artists. I wasn’t -- you know what I mean, that’s why Murray was so important.
NS: Mm-hmm.
JS: Because I -- my sister was a painter but she was also mentally ill, so it wasn’t --
NS: Mm-hmm.
JS: -- but...
NS: Did you, um, Murray has a certain gift, or did have a certain gift. And part of that was that -- and I’m speaking only personally -- is that he was extraordinarily articulate.
JS: That’s right.
NS: Both as a mover, but also as a speaker.
JS: That’s right.
NS: And so if you were, if you were searching for something and you were a mover it was a good connection.
JS: Yes. He was so creative with us. How he would describe time. How he would suggest the problems, and then the way he would criticize, being funny, instead of harsh -- or, you know what I mean?
NS: Mm-hmm.
JS: All that was so important for me.
NS: Did you -- when -- when he -- because you’re dealing in these abstractions: space, time, shape, energy, motion -- are really at once, they’re just simply words.
JS: Yeah.
NS: And then for someone who moves and who’s intrigued by what that means. There are people who just say “Well, okay, me-me-me-me-me” but it sounds as if that was a connection for you; those words and the movement.
JS: I think with Murray it was. I also felt like his -- I don’t know if I should say this but --
NS: Mm-hmm, go ahead.
JS: I also felt that his technique was limited, you know, compared to Martha Graham; the dancers were so extraordinary in a physical sense -- and I felt always that I wasn’t doing the best in technique, getting it. But it was more creatively that he was just so brilliant I think. I mean I’m not saying he wasn’t a good mover, I’m just saying that it wasn’t like a technique, like a Nikolais technique that he had.
NS: What you’re describing is that the strength that you gathered from him was in improvisation and conceptual excitement.
JS: Yes.
NS: Would that be accurate?
JS: Yes, as I said I would put it more that he was so creative as a teacher that year – the first year. And he made it so delicious. He described things in such a delicious way, I feel like it took me until -- I mean, so many years later -- to ever really understand or -- or be able to do motion -- and to really have space. I was great with time and I was great with shape (laughs). I was very locked at the time. All that stuff was there, and I did eventually work it out. And I feel like once I started teaching that I evolved it for my teaching, that I found a way to present it in a way that I found got it across very well. And it wasn’t exactly the same way at all.
NS: But it was a concept you owned; that you could own it too.
JS: That’s right. That’s right.
NS: At Henry Street, when you say that that was that sparkle year, do you remember who you worked with in composition, in a composition class? Or in a concert?
JS: Well, Tandy Beal and I did a duet, which was...
NS: Do you remember that at all?
JS: Yeah, we were like two sides of the same thing and we wore costumes that were half one color, half another color, purple and white I think. And it was like a shape kind of thing; I -- well I did a piece but it wasn’t the first year I don’t think. I’m sure it wasn’t. I did a piece with Luly, [Luly Santangelo,1936- ], with Tandy, with Virginia, no it certainly wasn’t the first year. Five women, I did a piece on them, [00:20:00] and I did this chair dance that Murray loved.
NS: What did he say about it?
JS: He -- the thing that was so funny is I go to Rosie’s[1] --every day and get a big sandwich --
NS: Hero (laughs).
JS: -- a big hero. And she came to a concert and saw the piece, and she loved it and talked about it always. And so Murray just was thrilled about that, you know that Rosie -- that it had moved Rosie. But, um… [pause] Anyway, we had a great time in that class. I worked with Norman and his little dance company one time [Pumpernickel Players], just a short thing, and...
NS: I’ll -- I’ll interject this. When I was talking with Coral [Martingdale Aubert, 1935- ] and we went out to lunch, I taped her at Henry Street, we were in one of the studios there, and we went down and out for lunch afterwards. And we were walking down the block and we were trying to find the -- Rosie’s, which of course is not there any longer. But she was remembering. She said “That’s right! Rosie, when you ordered something, she would always say “What do you want doll?””
JS: Yeah, and then Murray was like...
NS: And then Murray picked it up. She said “That’s where Murray picked up “doll.”
JS: Oh my gosh! Yeah, because -- and then I realized, now that I’m older, that you say dear or sweet or whatever ’cause you don’t remember anybody’s name. That was the other thing, that was his way to...
NS: So you -- and then you joined Nikolais’s company, you toured with Nik, didn’t you? What was that like?
JS: Well, it was a lot. I mean it was a four-month tour. We toured all over the United States. And then I think that summer, we went to Europe and Poland. It was four months. [May – September, 1969] And it was really hard because we didn’t get any direction, and we didn’t get class. I remember doing a Miss Rommett[2] [Zena Rommett, 1920-2010] class for everybody. They were all wanting it by then, just for the body, and Nikolais said “That’s no way to warm up for a performance” and stopped us and --
NS: Oh wow.
JS: -- but anyway, it was only, it was -- we should have had more -- especially for me ’cause it was my first year in the company, and -- it was hard.
NS: Is it hard because you didn’t feel like you had a grounding, or was it hard because it was late nights, or was it hard -- what -- what made it hard?
JS: No, I mean just that it’s a lot. You’re trying to see things and you’re spending the whole day lighting, and then you’re performing and then, I mean there’s lots of fun too. But I found that year really hard. I wasn’t used to it, and -- and there was no help.
NS: My sense too -- what -- I want to -- I want to focus on that -- that moment.
JS: And that was the year -- I mean that was the year that Phyllis left, and Murray too, because we had this thing in France --
NS: Yes.
JS: -- outside of Paris, remember?
NS: Yes.
JS: And -- and it was freezing cold, I mean really cold -- and we had to perform anyway. And so the two of them were so mad about it. I don’t know if Murray didn’t do one of the pieces I think. But they both I think left after that.
NS: I think that’s like 1969 -- I’m almost -- or ’70 -- ’69 or ’70.
JS: And that’s when we landed on the moon, we were in Lebanon
NS: ’69.
JS: Yeah.
NS: Yes. Jim [James Van Abbema, 1942- ] talks about the description in the history I took with him of the Baalbek performance.
JS: Oh my God that was unbelievable.
NS: Tell me about it.
JS: Because, because we lost the -- what was it, the tent I think, whatever -- whatever this big piece of fabric, and we couldn’t get it back. It was like windy and wild, and so we were all improvising, and it was this wild thing [00:25:00]. Then we got off stage and they announced that we just landed on the moon. It was just so thrilling, just thrilling.
NS: I want to go back to that -- that -- I will use quotation marks “scolding” that Nik said “That’s no way to warm up.” What do you think he meant by that, and where do you -- ?
JS: Well it’s not a performance thing, -- it’s a body thing. Because it’s all about kind of stiffly getting your body in shape. And Phyllis joined it, and finally when Carolyn [Carolyn Carlson, 1943-] joined it, other people too, then he was mad.
NS: Because it?
JS: Because he felt that it wasn’t a good way to warm up for performing. Other companies, they give class before. [before a performance] And they give direction after, they give feedback after, but we didn’t have anything for four months.
NS: When he would teach class at Henry Street, or after Henry Street, were you at The Space [The Space for Innovative Development] as well?
JS: I didn’t take, I taught I think then.
NS: At that point. What were his technique classes like, or --
JS: Well, it was -- it was -- that’s what I mean it was hard for me, he’d say “Oh, a little of this, and a little of this” and then you -- you know, and he would indicate it.
NS: Mm-hmm.
JS: And “a little this space” and a little, you know, uh, “the space the this” and -- I -- it didn’t give me a feeling. And then he’d play the drums. But it didn’t give me a physical feeling, and that’s how I better pick things up and get something out of it. So I felt it was a little stick-figurey.
NS: Mm-hmm.
JS: And I also felt that after I left Nikolais that I spent a lot of time -- like I went to Erick Hawkins [1909-1994] --
NS: Mm.
JS: -- in order to kind of bring my body back together. Like everything is parts, you know what I mean so --
NS: That’s an interesting --
JS: Yeah, and I feel like eventually, it took a lot of time but I did kind of have more of a whole mass instead of -- I mean they worked on mass but --
NS: You mean Erick or --
JS: No, no, -- Murray.
NS: It is however fascinating to explore, or to talk about the ways in which different people -- and by that I probably mean both different bodies and different psyches --
JS: That’s right. For some people it was wonderful. But not for me. I mean I -- it was hard on me to pick things up that way, and I loved it finally when we just leapt or when we did barrel roll leaps or something like that. Then I was happy -- that it was physical.
NS: I’m trying to remember -- those were the years that Tent [1968] and --
JS: Yeah, I don’t -- I was -- it’s not the first year of Tent because I remember Luly was in that and I wasn’t. And then I think though that we did bring Tent to Europe, I’m not totally sure. I know we -- with all the things in talking, we brought that.
NS: Tower [1968]?
JS: Tower, yeah.
NS: If you were to think about Nik’s pieces, Nik’s choreographic offerings, was there one in particular that you liked, or one in particular that just struck you the wrong way, or --
JS: Well, Tito’s [Alberto Del Saz, 1960- ], I mean what Tito did at, um, Hunter [Hunter College] -- I just couldn’t believe his work then. It was like seeing it from a great distance. The thing I loved though, and I don’t know the name of it, the thing that was like in a fair – It [was] just such a brilliant -- and I never saw the piece originally, I only saw that part of it that he directed for the college.
NS: As an excerpt.
JS: Yeah. And it was so brilliant. And all of it was brilliant. I mean all of the things at Hunter, I just thought they were exquisite. And just also directed so well. [00:30:00] I loved Tent, I mean no, Tower. I just loved that. And the original thing, when we’re sliding around with the circle things, coming --
NS: Imago [1963]?
JS: Imago, that was the first thing that I did. I had to learn it in a day.
NS: Aah! Gosh!
JS: And perform it that night.
NS: Oh my gosh.
JS: And, so that I liked. Not then, but (laughter). What else did I do? It’s awful, I can’t remember the other things. But I remember Tent, thinking that was so brilliant. Brilliant. And in Germany they had a hard time with that.
NS: Why was that?
JS: Well, because it’s like a fascist thing.
NS: When, when you left Nikolais’s company -- did you dance with Murray in his company?
JS: No.
NS: After you left Nikolais’s company -- you were teaching as well?
JS: I was teaching at Nikolais’s -- and I taught my own class, but I really shouldn’t have left. I should have stayed longer I think. I -- I said “oh I have to leave to do my work.” But then it was like, you know what I mean, it’s like it takes a long time after you’re so influenced by a technique to do your own work. I mean I did some, but I should have just stayed longer and...
NS: Why -- why do you say that?
JS: I just feel like, if I was -- I -- that -- I’m not sure that it would have been good for me, but I think it was a wiser thing to do, you know, to -- to make connections, to have more experience, to, um...
[pause]
NS: But, you went off on your own.
JS: Yeah, but I think it took a long time before I knew, I -- I don’t know, I did it.
NS: Can you -- can you talk about that process about how your own work, how you came to -- or arrived at that work? How you arrived at your own work, or shedding Nik or not shedding -- or incorporating, or --
JS: -- I think the thing, the main thing for me is that I just needed it so badly, a means of expression. So it was always about expression. I love dance, but it wasn’t -- it was always about expression and just needing to get things out. But it was very frustrating, ’cause I was so tight at that time -- emotionally, -- and so it took a long time before -- I mean actually, that’s not true. Things would come out, but I couldn’t decide to do a piece. It was like it had to kind of come out in spite of my -- lock. So things would come out, but here and there -- that were good.
NS: Were you performing your own work at that point?
JS: Yes, a little bit. I mean not like a whole concert at that time -- but and Emery [Emery Hermans, 1931-2004] and Sara [Sara Shelton Mann, 1943-] and I would do things together. We’d be in each other’s pieces and...
NS: That was the era of -- of shared concerts and --
JS: And being able to do a concert that didn’t cost a fortune like now.
NS: When you describe working with Emery and Sara, I mean sharing a concert -- were you in each other’s pieces?
JS: Yes, yes.
NS: Or did you recruit other people? What was that like? That process?
JS: We did something with just the three of us, our own pieces and in each other’s. That was great. That was really great.
NS: What -- what made it great?
JS: Well, we were such friends, and, Emery was so -- he had been planning to be an architect, so he had such a different way of approaching work, and Sara had such a different way of approaching work. I remember her doing a piece and I thought “What is going on?” And it turned out to be such a good piece. But I couldn’t see it the way she came with the things, you know, you couldn’t tell that it was going to be something. It was Crazy DogDances [00:35:00] and it was wonderful.
NS: When you say that it came to fruition I assu-- I think that -- that’s what you mean but did you -- was that the process -- I mean she would show it to you and you would say “uh-huh”?
JS: No.
NS: Or how did it work then?
JS: I don’t remember, but I remember being so surprised that something pulled together. It seemed so vague to me, you know, here I am Taurus, form, you know, and she brought something together in a completely other way, which was fascinating.
NS: Was it a solo of hers, or was this a group thing?
JS: No, we were all in it. It was Crazy Dogs and we were all crazy dogs.
NS: Do you remember Emery’s work?
JS: Yes.
NS: Can you describe a little of it?
JS: Well, I remember Moth -- where he was -- he was doing things with his arms and you just saw the fluorescent -- thing, just from regular lights -- from the way he moved his arms. And we had a duet. I remember one piece, I don’t think that we -- we didn’t tour with it, but that he did something about the whole edge of the proscenium. I remember Nikolais talking about it, how it was architectural, and...
NS: That’s a clue though, I would like for you to sort of situate yourself when you say that Nik liked it, or Nik made the comment about the architecture. Were those pieces that -- where were they -- were they performed at The Space or did you have your own --
JS: Well, that was probably composition class. In the proscenium theater, with Nikolais, he taught composition in the theater.
NS: At -- at --
JS: Henry Street.
NS: Henry Street. I can remember also Murray teaching.
JS: But not -- he taught in the studio usually.
NS: But I remember when he took over a couple of classes for Nik --
JS: Oh, well then he did.
NS: -- and he would say, he would say “Doll” you know, he’d say “Play to the balcony.” or “Remember that you have the balcony.” And I think that that training was very special to have -- to be able to have class and composition on -- on a --
JS: You said it!
NS: -- proscenium stage.
JS: And then to be able to do our little dances --
NS: Concerts.
JS: -- there, good heavens, it was so great.
NS: So at some point though, Nik is not a part of your environment -- and it becomes your own now. How do you work on a piece? How do you choreograph now? Because you still work at choreography.
JS: Yes, I just gave a concert, yeah. Well, I mean it’s very different with different dancers. I think I get ideas from myself and about that dancer. Not about them, but considering them. And so some people I have to choreograph every step for, and some people I let them improvise, like Chase [Chase Booth], he’s this amazing performer, and he pretty much -- well, first of all I can’t do what he does, so -- I mean he had – [in] one piece he’s hanging from the pipe -- and for a long time -- and doing things, so the material –- then a lot comes from him and I direct it and form it, and then other people -- it’s like part-way. But then in some dances I just do -- sometimes I just have the whole thing and I -- I do it all. You know, I give all the steps, but it’s very different with different people.
But usually with me it starts with an image. And it’s unclear often what it’s really about at first. I follow the image and then when I get into it, then I realize what it’s about, that why I got that image. Which is very interesting, but it’s scary. It’s like, you don’t know if you’ve really got something or not. You’re following -- and, then it’s just -- the great thing is that over the years I’ve kept dancers of all different ages. And so that helps the depth of the work so much.
NS: How so?
JS: Well, just that I’ve -- I’m very -- [00:40:00] I give a lot of feedback. For some -- I know just how I want something even though I don’t -- at the moment that we’re doing it I know. And then I -- so they get formed in the way that I want over years. You know, one – Peter [Peter Davis], he’s like 60 now and I had him as a student.
NS: How old a student?
JS: He was in NYU School of the Arts. And then other people I just started with that are really good dancers, and then Chase I’ve worked with him for 25 years at least, and -- and he never took dance classes, just me. By asking, telling him how I want something, not by giving him class or anything like that.
NS: How did he find you and how did you find him?
JS: Well, I was doing a dance and I had an open audition, and he came. He was an actor. And actually I’ve worked with a lot of actors from NYU’s -- the experimental school. They get a lot of work in (phone rings) movement and -- and improvisation too.
NS: I loved your description of “I start with an image.” I know this might be difficult or nearly impossible, but can you give an example?
JS: Yes, I can. Well this is a very minor example, but I got an image of a couple just going back and forth with their arms like this pushing, pushing the other, pushing, like a couple kind of in an argument. And that was the basis of starting, and then I realized that it was like a tango, and -- or that it could be, because I had this tango music I wanted to use, and then -- it just evolved from there. So it was like very kind of being nice to each other, and then getting back into the argument. But it just started with that one image.
NS: And you worked with two of your dancers that you had --
JS: I knew who they were going to be too. But I mean, usually it’s -- it’s not on that same level. It’s -- a lot of times -- I’m trying to think -- well, I did this piece, kind of a dark piece this last concert, and I had an image of pulling a woman, or pulling somebody, it didn’t even have to be a woman, but kind of out of the ground, pulling and then lifting it up to see what it is, and then pushing it away and, kind of like another part of yourself that you don’t want to see.
NS: Was that the image you started with?
JS: Yes. And that took forever to manifest itself, partly because of the people who were in it, but... Um, and what else? I don’t know.
NS: How did you deal with that, that it took forever? You know, that it must have been frustrating, or not?
JS: It was.
NS: Okay.
JS: Well, it’s just -- I really believe that a lot is just hanging in, and they did too. That was the great thing. But some things just can come out, and other things -- I used to think that it wasn’t a good idea if it didn’t come out easily enough. But then I realized that it is going to emerge; you just keep doing what you can and keep trying to shape it and changing it. They let me change it a million times. And then it became a very harsh but a good piece eventually, but it took a long time.
NS: You said “harsh piece.”
JS: Yes.
NS: What do you mean by that?
JS: Dark, that it was -- he was like pushing, rejecting her the whole time. She was trying to get to him and he was rejecting her. But it wasn’t like two people, it was like two parts -- that’s how I meant it anyway. I mean people didn’t necessarily see it that way but two parts of a person.
NS: You know it’s -- it’s interesting because on the one hand, we’re using words, so it’s literal, and yet if [00:45:00] -- and I don’t want to put words in your mouth or images in your head -- but you’re really dealing with motion, so how -- and finding the vocabulary for those words. Can you talk about that, as you’ve said, sometimes it’s easy and sometimes it’s not.
JS: Well, one of the people in it wasn’t used to my way at all. And so that was part of it. But it is -- that was very theatrical, but it was motion for sure. I mean it was full of motion, but not dance. But that’s the hard thing. It’s like writing, trying to find exactly the way to make it not what would ordinarily be -- you know what I mean to express it in a way that’s deeper and more communicative. And that takes time.
I changed a lot ’cause I always thought ooh I had to just get something out. And now I -- I really feel like it’s over time that something gets its richness and its depth and some of my dancers just really like that process, a long process of choosing a little more just changing and evolving it.
NS: And of course, when you know something’s right, then there’s a certain delight in it, you know that “I got that.”
JS: What a satisfaction --
NS: Yes!
JS: Yeah, I mean it’s not so often that you feel that (laughter) -- that you’re satisfied, but still, that it’s come to something.
NS: I was looking at some of the reviews, or the PR, and trying to sort of cull from it, you know, a sense of what your work is about. I was struck with -- that you’re tackling -- correct me if I’m wrong -- some pretty large themes. They’re -- it’s a big -- there’s -- there’s a large theme there. How do you get it to be both large and realize it?
JS: Well I feel like it’s -- it has to do with the need.
NS: Okay.
JS: Do you know, that if you have a need to do it and then -- it -- it’s just -- it’s really amazing to me because it’s sometimes you -- you have an image to begin with, and then you go through this and that and thee, and you’re worried about this and ni-na-na-na-ni and then finally when you perform it, it is what you wanted, in a way. Maybe not exactly but it’s like a miracle, because all along you kind of half lost track of it. You know, you’re concerned about this movement and “Why can’t I get that -- why can’t she do that. And why?” You know? But I do think it’s hanging in. You do something and then you look at it again, and then you see it differently the next day, or a few days later and it evolves. And then sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes it’s -- you have to perform it and it’s not good (laughs) too.
NS: But then it might resurrect itself later in some other form too.
JS: That the work probably doesn’t go completely to waste, but.
NS: Earlier you talked about working with dancers of all ages. What do you find both rewarding, or what are the differences or --
JS: Well, you know I just -- I say it especially because I just worked with Luly’s grandchild, who’s 17, and she is a brilliant hip-hop dancer. I mean, she’s a master already.
I mean she is gorgeous like her mother Solee. And in a different, totally different way though, and with a dif-- she’s not -- she’s Taurus and kind of soft, but -- so I had her in a piece with Kingsley [Kingsley Nwaogu], who is this beautiful - he’s an actor too but -- anyway, and it was such a different thing came out because of her. And [00:50:00] I just left her alone I mean -- she doesn’t really know modern dance, but I let her do it her own way, and it was so moving what came out. The piece would need work if I did it, and it did because we went to New Orleans and I had to do it with someone else. And then I have Peter, who’s in his ‘60s I think, and Charles [Charles Richardson] who’s this beautiful performer, not a really a dancer, who is also in his ‘60s. And Chase is in his ‘50s. And then I have dancers that are like in their ‘30s. A beautiful -- Caroline Fermin, she’s a beautiful dancer. And then I got a new da-- her friend, to dance with her, Dan [Dan Walczak], who’s in his ‘30s I think.
NS: Mm.
JS: So it really is a lot of ages (laughs).
NS: How is that -- when -- when you’re choreographing for someone who’s in their ‘60s, and then you’re choreographing for someone who is 17 -- can you describe the difference for you?
JS: Well, I mean when they’re in their ‘60s they understand a lot. You know what I mean? With Peter for instance, he’s been with me so long. With Charles, I mean, it’s just different with each person. Some people that you don’t want to give steps to because it will boggle their mind.
And it needs to come out of them. Other people, like Peter, every single step I choose for him. But he’s been a beautiful performer. But he’s not exactly a dancer -- so you just get an idea for him.
NS: Mm.
JS: You know? And then, like Caroline and Chase did a dance that was totally dancing the whole time. Because they can do it.
NS: When you collaborate with someone, can you talk about that? I -- I -- I’m specifically thinking that -- that you work with musicians, that you work with lighting designers, that you work with,
JS: Well, usually I don’t -- I mean, there was one great experience with a composer but usually I do my own. I mean I overlap things and -- I don’t start with music at all. I make it after. But there was one great experience where I did a piece with somebody -- I did hear the music before though, and then she enlarged the piece for me. But other than that I don’t. Because if they write something and I don’t like it -- it’s happened and then I don’t -- then I don’t -- so [I’m] just always terrified of that. And in this case she had written something. I knew what it was ahead of time. So...
NS: That you liked.
JS: I loved it. I knew it was perfect for the piece see?
NS: Do you -- do you take class now?
JS: Well, I just took with Zvi [Zvi Gotheiner]. But I haven’t for years now, because I hurt my knee. But then it’s better, I mean it didn’t bother me at all.
NS: What’s class like for you with Zvi?
JS: Oh, it was like heaven. All I did was do the barre. I didn’t do more than that. And I went with Chase and -- and Val. You know, we all went together. It was just beautiful with the music and I just loved it. So I’m going to keep doing it.
NS: When you say you love it, is it the structure, is it the -- his teaching?
JS: I went in and I thought -- He is so calm and kind, it’s like he gives everyone time, and he’ll show the steps slowly, and you know, for someone else it might drive them crazy, but he shows it, and he shows it again if he doesn’t think you’ve got it, and then -- everything is -- there’s a solidity, and he’s Taurus too (Natasha giggles) and he’s a very close friend. So it was like aah! I just felt great to dance within the movements that he was giving -- to have the music, and it was just such a delicious pleasure. [pause] First class back, so probably the next one won’t be as… (laughter).
NS: It’s what we were talking about before when I was talking about reinventing, and how dancers have that kind of internal discipline that allows you to change gears in a lot of ways.
JS: Yeah, well I give myself class and all these different exercises and stuff so it was such a relief to have someone else do it. And I take class from -- we have a wonderful class here that -- Valerie teaches [00:55:00] -- it’s called Nutritious Movement[3] -- It’s something fantastic, specific things that you’re working on. Not like Pilates [Joseph Pilates 1883-1967], but -- and your body - it gets so quickly stronger.
NS: Nutritious?
JS: Well, she’s learning it from TV from this wonderful, kind of a scientist person that understands the body so well and has exercises that specifically develop certain things, so...
NS: Does she have -- I’m -- I’m thinking of -- of Zena’s classes, you know, are --
JS: It’s not like that.
NS: -- specific Rommett --
JS: Yes, it is a little bit, but -- she’s called -- I mean this isn’t Valerie’s term -- this is the woman who -- it’s called Nutritious Movement. It’s got some things like Zena but in a different way. It’s not so tight. And it’s like one thing at a time. It’s supposed to be for a good old age to keep you in -- in all your body okay.
NS: Do you go to see dance --
JS: Not much.
NS: -- performances or --
JS: Friends.
NS: -- choreographers or --
JS: I don’t end up going too much to things, I don’t know why but...
NS: I was going to ask why is that? I mean, do -- do you have a sense of why that is?
JS: [pause] I would say there aren’t that many things that I’m really interested in. And then there’re some things that I miss. You know I’m not always following what’s going on, so it’s a combination of those things.
NS: Are you – I mean -- If you’re not going to a dance concert --,
JS: Mm-hmm.
NS: Say that’s not the discipline that interests you, or the art form that interests you. Are there other art forms that interest you or that you regularly see or do?
JS: Well I mean I love to see good dance. I love it. It’s just that I rarely go. And what else? I don’t go to theater too much. I don’t go to opera. I have a lot of friends that I go to their concerts (laughs).
NS: Concerts, sure.
JS: Which keeps you busy, but, um...
NS: That excites you, or -- or if there’s an exhibit at the museum.
JS: Oh, I love that. I love going to the museum.
NS: At certain points in one’s life, I’m only into sculpture for these years or this year or I just want to look at red.
JS: I’m not like that. But I do get very stimulated by -- sometimes I think “Oh well, I was not at all talented in it.” That I see more like a painter, sculptor, but, I love going to good shows. And I love going to good dance too. I do.
NS: Are there any specific painters that you like, or -- or museums that you like?
JS: Well I love the Metropolitan. But I love Mary Frank. And I love Ro-- uh, what I -- what’s his name? Not Rodin, but Rodon, R-E-D-O-N. [Odilon Redon, 1840-1916] [pause] There’s so many I like. I can’t think now. I can’t think of their names, but I -- I -- there are lots of painters that inspire me. Many times I get inspired for a piece.
NS: And somehow an image floats in.
JS: Yes, but it’s not direct at all. I’ll look through it and then it will be an element in the dance, like Bosch or Brueghel. Like that one dance that was kind of my idea, and then it didn’t turn out to be anything like it, but the way the people moved had something of that -- there was a residue of that, but not -- didn’t end up to be the important thing in it.
NS: I think it -- I -- there’s some -- there’s a piece of yours that’s on YouTube.
JS: What one?
NS: God, and I don’t remember the name of it. But I remember [01:00:00] watching it and there’s a woman who’s in the -- in like a net hammock -- which I was trying to imagine what it was like to see in person as opposed to --
JS: And you saw all the men underneath?
NS: Yes.
JS: Yes. That’s the music that I -- that she composed that I loved, that went with the piece so well.
NS: The YouTube of it on my little computer -- the lighting is dark. I can’t really see it very well. But the effect is extraordinary. Because you don’t at first realize that the central figure, if I can call her that -- is suspended --
JS: Right.
NS: -- is in a net, and so, is in this hammock/net -- And what you see is just someone who’s just suspended in the air. Can you talk about that process too, or -- how you choreographed that piece?
JS: These are all so silly things, but I have a friend that I wanted to come back to dance, somebody that I had a great experience with as a dancer. And so I thought, “Well, how will she be comfortable? How will she feel secure?” Because you know, she hasn’t danced for a long time. So I thought “Well, I’ll put her in a sack.” So that was part -- part of -- but that isn’t the whole thing. I mean I had an image of the suspension, and the way I thought of it, which I don’t know if it’s how it came across -- was that the men were really like her mind. Like she was -- this was going through her mind what they were doing. And so they were very strong in the whole thing, it’s very strong. You saw the whole piece? - with them coming up, and the stairs behind and...[pause] that’s the one that I thought of Bosch, kind of Bosch and Brueghel. The way they move. But you see it didn’t end up to be that important. It was sort of like, and I don’t know if my idea was so clear in that. I think the piece worked, but I don’t know if my idea of what she was doing -- I don’t wonder if you saw the first year or the second year? Because there were two different dancers in that -- in the second year it was much more evolved.
NS: What changed from the first year to the second year?
JS: Well I didn’t have very much of a concept. I was working with one person, then -- and then she couldn’t do it. So then I was sticking to [the] ideas of her improvisations. I didn’t understand it well enough the first year, what it was, and I don’t know if I really understood it fully the second year, but I -- I let it move much more, and she was great, the person that did it the second year. I mean she was really -- because it’s so uncomfortable being in there, you can’t imagine. Just to try to move, everything is like mush. It’s like you try and stand up -- and she is really strong, and she could do everything, but...
NS: But she’s in a sack (laughs). It reminded me of -- or -- it wasn’t at all like, I don’t mean to -- to make it specific, but, you know, these are -- these sessions are always, um, sort of reminiscences as well for me.
JS: Sure.
NS: And what I remember so striking about studying at The Space on 36th Street was that there were in residence four or five different artistic companies -- one of which was Multigravitational Group [Multi-gravitational Experiment Group, now the Multigravitational Aerodance Group]. And they were working in netting above the ground, above the floor, and working on how they could -- what it felt like to -- to -- to quote unquote “Defy gravity” -- or to have multigravitional -- motion. And so seeing this piece of yours, and realizing that this person after a while is not suspended --
JS: She’s just only like that -- that much from the floor [01:05:00]. It’s just so funny --
NS: It’s amazing.
JS: But I didn’t ever see that. Batya [Batya Zamir [1942- ] used to do things suspended -- netting I think. I never saw that either but --
NS: So if you were to look at your trajectory, from when you were a child -- after dinner, to now, what kind of a trajectory do you see? That’s what I’m asking.
JS: Well, I feel like when I was a child it was just dancing. Just dancing and dancing and that I just loved to dance. And music was the important thing. And then I think that Truda was important. When I -- just as a child I went for two years and it -- it gave me some sense of – and then performing and getting makeup and everything like that.
But then for a long time I didn’t do anything, and then, I really left and went to dance, but I didn’t know if I could really dance. I was old. And I didn’t know anything about the world of it or anything like that. But I feel as if I made -- the important thing for me was that I made a very rich way -- eventually, it took a long time -- for me to really express myself. And I desperately needed that, and I just feel so lucky that I could stick with it and have that.
But I think that Nik and Murray gave me a lot to work with. And certainly made my teaching have a lot to work with, and -- and my work, certainly. And I feel like after I left them I rounded it out. All along I had my own ways of expressing the things, but -- expressing the things as a teacher I mean. And the way I gave weird things to the students (laughter).
NS: Weird?
JS: Yeah, I mean I would tell them to “Okay, go inside yourself and you’re going into a dark hole inside, and go first into your head and then go down through your body and then see the whole thing from the hips all the way through inside, and then relate to another person without going out of that” and you see what I mean? It was very strange things that they would just do. So then I could give more strange things, because I realized they’d just do it.
All that was very interesting for me. That was a whole exploration, and then I worked with a person inside (laughs). Well, I would have some things to build up to it, some images, and they’d work on the image, and another image and they’d work on that, and then I’d say “Okay, inside there’s a person inside, and there’s space between you and the person. It’s dark in there, but I want you to light up the person and see what they look like as much as you can. I mean it’s very hard to keep the whole thing, but go around and see what the person’s like.” And then I’d say “Okay, now let the person do what they want.” And it’s -- it’s so fascinating. I mean, -- see -- things like that, and the people will do it. And so it’s just such a -- a fascinating -- a fascinating thing, teaching became for me. I didn’t ever want to teach, and then once I started teaching I just loved it (laughs).
NS: There’s a gift to -- there’s a generosity in teaching that I think is something that good teachers have.
JS: Yeah, I just loved it. I mean I -- I guess I was just scared of it, but also I -- I did children with Murray. I was his assistant, and it was so out of control. I was so -- I couldn’t control them. I knew I couldn’t work with kids (laughs).
NS: Well, and I suspect too with his -- with Murray’s energy --
JS: Well he could control them. But I couldn’t. I could see that. I didn’t have the way with them that he did. [01:10:00].
NS: I love that image though, that you were giving just now of -- of the -- in the dark but now it’s light.
JS: But put light around --
NS: Put light around it.
JS: -- inside your own body.
NS: Especially because it evokes such -- spatial volume.
JS: Well that’s what I was -- and if you do this thing of going inside, just in the space, and I would say “Go inside your body and experience it from inside, so the space is not the same. It’s not this space. It could be a huge vast space inside.” And then to make them go all the way to the ends of their fingers, and -- and then to move after that, after you’ve got the whole body, I mean it’s fascinating to see how transformed they might be. Maybe not -- and um, so many things like that -- that gave a lot to me and my work, and them. Yeah.
NS: And -- and that kind of trajectory. You’ve started someplace as a child, and, have evolved with that kind of imagery is very strong.
JS: Yeah, I feel like as a child I just did it for fun, but that I must have developed my own way, and something I developed, because I had my own way of thinking of things. From that, I’m sure. From having all those years of just having the fantasies and -- of myself -- and of this and that. And that that must have made something happen in me that I was unconscious of certainly, but...
NS: Great!
JS: Yeah.
NS: You want to stop, I think that’s a good place to stop.
JS: Yes, that’s plenty.
END OF AUDIO FILE
[1] A luncheonette on Grand Street between Clinton and Pitt Streets.
[2] Zena Rommett, 1920-2010. Ballet trained, Rommett developed what became known as Floor-Barre Technique™, a ballet barre exercised while lying on the floor and performed without the stress of gravity.
[3] See: nutritiousmovement.com
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